Kill Bill: Vol. 2
Speaker A
00:00:00.240 - 00:00:20.940
Foreign. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Movie wars podcast. Bill is not dead.
Speaker B
00:00:23.200 - 00:00:25.928
You're gonna have to so jacked up for this conversation.
Speaker C
00:00:26.024 - 00:00:32.150
I know. I think it's his coffee he was talking about. You were talking about brewing all this coffee. It got me all excited.
Speaker A
00:00:33.210 - 00:00:35.762
We just got done playing a game of grab ass. Sorry.
Speaker B
00:00:35.826 - 00:00:36.470
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:00:39.770 - 00:00:43.106
I've never had that sound come out of me before. I apologize.
Speaker B
00:00:43.138 - 00:00:43.890
You better leave it in.
Speaker C
00:00:43.930 - 00:00:46.914
You're going to have to pot that down. I think maybe I blew everybody's speed.
Speaker A
00:00:46.962 - 00:00:48.002
Couple. Couple of.
Speaker B
00:00:48.106 - 00:00:49.634
That's what compressors are for.
Speaker A
00:00:49.802 - 00:00:52.350
Well, if you didn't know it, Matthew Blitz is back.
Speaker C
00:00:54.730 - 00:00:56.292
I'm going to double down. I don't care.
Speaker A
00:00:56.386 - 00:01:20.240
Stand up comedian, film critic. And we're back at Seth's house. And Seth is always here. I hope you know how much I love you for setting up and doing all this.
I'm going to tell you in front of the people. Yeah, we had a little bit of a spat last episode. He said. He said something I said sounded judgy.
And what I was really trying to say is my wife was judging me for something and I passed the judgment on to you. And so this is me professing in front of the people when secretly he.
Speaker B
00:01:20.280 - 00:01:24.704
Was the one judging me. Because he hates the masterpiece Tintin because he's an asshole.
Speaker A
00:01:24.752 - 00:01:25.120
That's right.
Speaker C
00:01:25.160 - 00:01:28.164
And he's objectively correct to do so. Just so everyone else knows.
Speaker A
00:01:28.192 - 00:01:39.868
Knows we're old men. Okay. We're old men and we have old men opinions. And. Yeah, like I will watch RoboCop again tonight if I could.
You know, I'm just gonna keep re watching robocop until I die.
Speaker C
00:01:39.964 - 00:01:44.156
Yeah. I would shoot Steven Spielberg in the face to never have to watch Tintin again.
Speaker A
00:01:44.228 - 00:01:44.556
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:01:44.588 - 00:01:46.780
That much. And I wasn't even on that episode.
Speaker A
00:01:46.860 - 00:01:52.560
What. What joke did I crack at the beginning that was upset it wasn't a solo side movie about my favorite crow villain.
Speaker B
00:01:53.140 - 00:01:53.676
Oh, yeah.
Speaker C
00:01:53.708 - 00:01:54.236
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:01:54.348 - 00:02:10.578
It's like, damn it. Well, last week we couldn't. We didn't effectively kill Bill. We had to do volume two. And as a reminder, we settled on six to one.
Although there was a lot of dissenting opinions internally. Ultimately, we went six and one, and we're doing volume two here, so. Yeah.
Speaker B
00:02:10.674 - 00:02:11.042
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:02:11.106 - 00:02:25.860
And if you have any questions, I could just review it or you could just go listen to volume one before you listen to this one. We are doing volume two here, so I don't even know if I need to do a big long intro thing. I mean, what do we think? Where do we.
How do we pick up on volume two? Here we.
Speaker B
00:02:25.970 - 00:02:51.552
I find. I find volume two interesting, especially compared to the first one.
But even just in general, I find it so funny that she's literally at the very beginning, narrating, you know, last time on Gill, Bill, and she. She's just like. And now there's only one person left that I have to kill. Just you, Bill.
And then there's two other people that she kills before she gets to Bill. I was like, oh, okay. I thought, they're dead. What?
Speaker C
00:02:51.656 - 00:03:02.524
Stylistically, it's a cool noir thing that they're doing and all of that. You know, we spoke about it in the last episode, but Tarantino nearly killed Uma Thurman probably. I think it was in that car.
Speaker B
00:03:02.612 - 00:03:04.684
Oh, wow. So in the Pussy Wagon.
Speaker C
00:03:04.812 - 00:03:18.560
Yeah, well, the pussy died, you know. But, yeah, weirdly enough, the frenetic pacing that drew me in so much on the first movie that Seth denies exists.
Speaker B
00:03:19.620 - 00:03:22.140
No, there is pacing. There is bad pacing.
Speaker C
00:03:22.220 - 00:03:30.408
He thinks it's bad pacing. I think it's frenetic. It's different in the second movie.
There's no denying that the pacing feels like a completely different movie in the second movie.
Speaker B
00:03:30.504 - 00:03:44.200
And to be honest with you, for the first half of the movie, I very much enjoyed the pacing. I thought it was very well paced. Until she gets to Bill and I hit pause because I wanted to see how much time was left.
And there was a fucking hour left in the movie.
Speaker A
00:03:44.360 - 00:03:44.888
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:03:44.984 - 00:04:15.458
And I think if it had been 20 to 30 minutes left in the movie, I think the pacing would have been perfect. But the fact that your penultimate moment is an hour long and most of it is, again, nothing happening other than conversations. It lost me.
I literally. This is the point where I fast forwarded through most of the last hour of that movie because I just. It was too much for me.
Speaker C
00:04:15.514 - 00:04:28.474
Yeah, I get that completely. Going into the second one, I.
You know, in 2004, going into the theater, I was expecting kind of that frenetic pacing and the anime sequences, and you got a little bit of that with some of the kung fu training sequences.
Speaker B
00:04:28.522 - 00:04:31.066
But this goes more traditional kung fu than it does anime.
Speaker C
00:04:31.178 - 00:04:37.866
Absolutely. It draws more from that. And specifically casting Gordon Liu in the Pai Mei character, I find very fascinating because.
Speaker B
00:04:37.938 - 00:04:46.788
Which I love that entire sequence. Yeah, that whole scene is fantastic. Perfectly edited. It's perfectly paced. Like, all of that is so good for me. Yeah.
Speaker C
00:04:46.804 - 00:05:18.340
And they were going to have Tarantino do the voiceover for that Gordon Liu Pai Mei depiction, but, you know, Gordon Liu's dialogue. He was so good in it that they didn't end up going that way, which I'm glad.
But just the Gordon Liu Pai Mei connection is fascinating to me because it starts with Executioners from Shaolin, where Gordon Liu is up against the character of Pai Mei, not playing the character of Pai Mei.
And then you've got Fist of the White Lotus, which is a great movie with the Pai Mei character where he can suck his balls up into his body and that's his primary form of defense.
Speaker B
00:05:20.200 - 00:05:22.192
Oh, my God. He turtles his balls.
Speaker C
00:05:22.256 - 00:05:23.600
He turtles his balls.
Speaker A
00:05:23.760 - 00:05:24.224
But.
Speaker C
00:05:24.312 - 00:05:50.632
But for me, it's fascinating because you've got Gordon Liu in that character role that he was kind of known for fighting against this particular character in the. In the history of cinema. So interesting. Yeah, it's just really neat.
And it's one of the best examples of one of those types of kung fu montage sequences in that. In that genre. I mean, just. It's kind of. It's paying homage to that genre, but it's also creating some of the best shot examples of that genre.
Speaker B
00:05:50.696 - 00:06:12.148
Oh, completely agree.
But weirdly, to have the juxtaposition between the scene that directly precedes that where there she's lying in front of the fire and he's telling his story and playing that again, I was this close to fast forwarding that scene. If it hadn't cut when it did, I would have fast forwarded through most of that scene because it just.
Speaker A
00:06:12.204 - 00:06:12.840
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:06:14.940 - 00:06:25.440
It'S hard for me because I do get the whole adding depth to characters. But what needed to be said was said in the first.
Speaker C
00:06:25.740 - 00:06:26.900
At the wedding chapel.
Speaker B
00:06:26.980 - 00:07:05.294
Well, no, no, no, no. In this fire scene where they're.
Where he's telling the story and they're having conversation, what technically needed to be said was said within the first two minutes of the scene, and then the scene goes for almost another three, four minutes. While I don't, you know, believe that you only need to say what needs to be said, that nuance is important in a movie. It's still. It's like there's.
There's so much extra that has nothing to do with anything. It's just there. And. And this. This one for me, had less of that than the first one did.
But it still had enough, especially in that last hour, that it was just. It was difficult for me to get through.
Speaker A
00:07:05.462 - 00:07:15.424
Yeah, it's funny. I. I did enjoy that last scene. I totally get why you didn't, though, because it is the only scene in the movie I.
Time check Personally, it was the only time I was like, okay.
Speaker B
00:07:15.552 - 00:07:16.048
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:07:16.144 - 00:07:23.072
And. But. Yeah, but the thing for me was I find myself kind of enthralled by the sound of Carradine's voice.
Speaker B
00:07:23.136 - 00:07:23.744
Sure.
Speaker A
00:07:23.912 - 00:07:24.704
So. Yeah.
Speaker C
00:07:24.752 - 00:07:27.024
And he's delivering a Tarantino speech.
Speaker A
00:07:27.072 - 00:07:27.632
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:07:27.776 - 00:07:28.352
So it's.
Speaker B
00:07:28.416 - 00:07:30.140
Well, he's delivering three of them.
Speaker A
00:07:30.680 - 00:07:31.392
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:07:31.536 - 00:07:35.952
But you only got one chance to see Carradine deliver three Tarantino speeches.
Speaker B
00:07:36.016 - 00:07:38.278
And, you know, it's put him in three different movies.
Speaker C
00:07:38.374 - 00:07:43.878
Yeah, well, he. He was. He had other hobbies, apparently. Doorknobs, that sort of thing.
Speaker A
00:07:43.934 - 00:07:53.078
Oh, and not to mention, it's the only time in the move in both movies where I'm asking myself about the. The mechanics of her getting shot in the head and being pregnant.
Speaker B
00:07:53.174 - 00:07:53.494
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:07:53.542 - 00:08:01.958
And the kid's alive and she survived. Yeah. Like, yes. The whole time in this movie, I've completely suspended my. My disbelief. Like, I'm good.
Speaker C
00:08:02.014 - 00:08:02.246
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:08:02.278 - 00:08:06.338
But this was the first time in both movies at all where I'm like, okay, wait a fucking second.
Speaker B
00:08:06.394 - 00:08:06.770
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:08:06.850 - 00:08:18.994
Okay. She got shot in the head. She survived. Woke up from a coma. Baby was in there. Baby's alive, doing great. He has the baby.
I'm just like, it was the only time where I kind of was like doing gymnastics to kind of figure out.
Speaker B
00:08:19.082 - 00:08:26.594
The only part of it that I can justify is she was basically nine months pregnant by the time that the shooting happened.
Speaker A
00:08:26.642 - 00:08:27.090
Okay.
Speaker B
00:08:27.170 - 00:08:38.066
It would be not easy, but it would be very feasible for. Because once they found out she was alive, they immediately rushed her to the hospital.
And I'm pretty sure they just performed immediate, like an emergency C section.
Speaker A
00:08:38.098 - 00:08:38.354
Okay.
Speaker C
00:08:38.402 - 00:08:50.210
And it's probably playing homage to a lot of the non logical elements of the 70s cinema that it's kind of drawing inspiration from as well. Because it doesn't matter if it makes sense, it only matters if it's badass.
Speaker A
00:08:50.370 - 00:08:51.650
True. Very true.
Speaker B
00:08:51.730 - 00:09:25.860
Weirdly, one of the things that I would actually critique the hardest about this movie, the very last set of shots where she's laugh crying in the bathroom, which is an amazing acting moment from Uma Thurman. That's not what I'm criticizing. What I wish Tarantino had done. And I think this was a very, very big missed opportunity.
She has absolutely no scars on her body at all.
And I think it would have been a significantly more powerful image if she had literally just been in her bra so that you can see because she got shot in the chest.
Speaker C
00:09:25.940 - 00:09:26.276
Right.
Speaker B
00:09:26.348 - 00:09:51.130
She got cut and stabbed. She obviously had some sort of C section. Should have had a C section scar.
Like it could have been such a really cool, non dialogue visual moment to see the physical, like embodiment of the scars that she's been through to get to this moment with her daughter. And weirdly that moment, it completely sucked me out of it when I'm like, she has no scars.
Speaker A
00:09:51.210 - 00:09:51.850
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:09:52.010 - 00:10:07.594
Her body is perfect. She should be beaten to shit, but recovered by now. And I think it was.
Again, it's just another detail that adds to the reason why this dropped so far down my list of Tarantino movies.
Speaker A
00:10:07.642 - 00:10:09.978
I hadn't even thought about that. That's a really good point.
Speaker C
00:10:10.114 - 00:10:17.658
What's interesting about Tarantino is that he does hotel room with the TV on shots better than anybody.
Speaker B
00:10:17.754 - 00:10:18.410
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker C
00:10:18.490 - 00:10:22.070
Paints this picture. It's like everything you need to about that situation.
Speaker B
00:10:22.150 - 00:10:22.454
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:10:22.502 - 00:10:37.830
Is like the cartoons on the tv and you know, he's done that in other movies obviously like Pulp Fiction and things like that. But it just, I don't know, it's this weird liminal world that only exists in hotel rooms in those moments. And it's a. I.
It's a distinctly Tarantino element.
Speaker B
00:10:37.910 - 00:10:54.372
It is. And it's like outside of this one visual thing, that's a perfect scene. Yeah.
But it's like to end such an over the top, violent, brutal movie like this where she doesn't have any battle scars, I think was a huge missed opportunity.
Speaker C
00:10:54.436 - 00:10:58.932
Yeah, that'd be. Yeah, that'd be cool. You see, the emotional scars are quite prevalent.
Speaker B
00:10:58.996 - 00:10:59.332
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:10:59.396 - 00:10:59.732
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:10:59.796 - 00:11:04.596
But I want to see because she, like I said, she got, she got shotgunned to the chest.
Speaker C
00:11:04.788 - 00:11:07.716
You're going to have some. Yeah. Like she's going to leave a mark.
Speaker B
00:11:07.788 - 00:11:26.404
Yeah. There should have been some scars there. There should have been a scar on her back where she got cut in the first movie. Like there's just.
I don't know, for whatever reason that particularly. I think it just bothered me so much that, that her body was perfect at the end of all of that. I think it was a point, a way better visual image.
Speaker A
00:11:26.532 - 00:11:49.876
Yeah.
Another interesting thing is that Tarantino was quoted saying that he very much wanted to purposely fill like volume one and Volume once he found out he wasn't going to release it as one film. He wanted volume one to be east and volume two to be west.
He wanted to purposely channel all the eastern influence and vibe into one and then all the western influence in the two. And that makes sense. And that's why I think you actually sense a dramatic change.
Speaker B
00:11:49.948 - 00:11:50.244
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:11:50.292 - 00:11:56.996
It's edited, presented. You can still taste and see the western or the eastern elements. In there, but they definitely are still presented differently.
Speaker B
00:11:57.028 - 00:12:09.812
Well, like we said in, in volume one's episode, a lot of the. Not even just the genre of western, but like specifically western made films that he's emulating have a lot of eastern influence.
Speaker C
00:12:09.876 - 00:12:11.652
Yeah, it's all, it's all self feeding.
Speaker B
00:12:11.716 - 00:12:26.020
Yeah. So it's going to bleed in.
But there is definitely, there's definitely an evolved version of it that became the way that style of western cinema was made. So that is interesting to hear that he like very purposefully wanted to take that shift.
Speaker A
00:12:26.180 - 00:12:41.008
Yeah. What I think is funny too is you, because you see the desert and you're starting to see how much Tarantino wants to like make a western.
The moment when he finally made a western in it. Funny that it was in the snow. Yeah, yeah. He finally makes the western and it's a snow western.
Speaker B
00:12:41.024 - 00:12:43.456
But then he also did Django, which was before that.
Speaker A
00:12:43.528 - 00:12:47.824
Yeah. Which has a lot of western elements that you could, you could basically say that's a western in a lot of ways.
Speaker B
00:12:47.872 - 00:12:49.136
It's a Western in the South.
Speaker A
00:12:49.208 - 00:12:50.160
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C
00:12:50.240 - 00:13:06.430
It more conforms to 70s Western sensibilities. I feel like in some of the spaghetti Western, obviously then you're talking more of like the Jeremiah Johnson and those types of things.
Kill Bill Volume 2 is deeply rooted in the John Ford stuff. Is. Is readily apparent.
Speaker B
00:13:07.650 - 00:13:10.698
I mean it's very reminiscent of the Fistful of Dollars trilogy.
Speaker C
00:13:10.794 - 00:13:30.150
Yeah, you get those spaghetti western pieces as well. But those John Ford shots where it's these expansive Monument valley landscapes driving up to Bud's trailer, you get a lot of that.
And then you get the iconic doorway sequence as she's heading out of the wedding chapel. That's. I mean that's John Ford. That's his right there.
Speaker B
00:13:30.450 - 00:13:58.892
And. Yeah, that. So in the last episode I talked about how the weird shift to black and white during the fight scene was weird. That makes sense.
Knowing that they were just trying to not make the blood red so it would still be rated R this time. I very much appreciated that. The only black and white sequence still was the chapel scene.
Because other than that one sequence in one, the flashback of her dying and being shot, that's the only thing in black and white.
Speaker A
00:13:58.996 - 00:13:59.372
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:13:59.436 - 00:14:02.764
And I, I like that that carried through fully to that scene.
Speaker C
00:14:02.812 - 00:14:20.668
Yeah, it makes sense contextually as well because she's trying to pretend like she belongs in this other world with these record stored people. And she would have never like the whole Superman speech, whatever you felt about it, she would have not fit into that world.
She was Very much putting on a face for that world.
Speaker B
00:14:20.724 - 00:14:21.004
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:14:21.052 - 00:14:26.068
And it's, it's appropriate contextually that that seek that scene be in black and white.
Speaker B
00:14:26.124 - 00:14:26.356
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:14:26.388 - 00:14:27.556
It's not superfluous.
Speaker B
00:14:27.668 - 00:14:28.292
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:14:28.436 - 00:14:28.852
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:14:28.916 - 00:15:00.176
A lot of good choices in this one. I think a lot of better choices in this volume still. Like I said, that last hour was all of the pacing issues I had in the first one. It just.
Too much, but not enough at the same time. Like very, very odd pacing for me in that last, last bit. Also, I got to be honest, one of the shittiest death scenes I've ever seen.
When Bill actually falls over and dies for how over the top everything else in this movie was the anti.
Speaker C
00:15:00.208 - 00:15:01.888
Climactic nature of that.
Speaker B
00:15:02.024 - 00:15:22.156
So anticlimactic because I wouldn't even call it subtle. I would just call it anticlimactic. I agree with that.
Because like the whole thing, the whole legend is that your heart explodes and he's just gonna fall over. I want. Even if I'm not gonna see mountains of blood flying everywhere, I want to. I want to watch something that looks like his heart fucking explode.
Speaker A
00:15:22.188 - 00:15:22.444
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:15:22.492 - 00:15:38.028
And there were also parts from the films that. That kind of. That five point palm exploding heart technique was.
They had drawn from that were much cooler than anything that happened in the Kill Bill movies to where it's like you could only take a hundred steps after you were subjected to this particular move.
Speaker B
00:15:38.084 - 00:15:38.460
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:15:38.540 - 00:15:44.620
And the guy took 99 and. And then fell down so that it's like you could have done so many cool things with that.
Speaker B
00:15:44.660 - 00:15:44.972
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:15:45.036 - 00:15:54.226
But he didn't do much with it. I don't necessarily detract from the overall score I give this movie because of that. It's just there. There are some missed opportunities there.
Speaker B
00:15:54.298 - 00:16:02.882
Yeah. And I don't know for me, again, if you're going to make me spend four hours of my time watching a movie, the payoff better be fucking worth it.
Speaker A
00:16:02.906 - 00:16:03.106
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:16:03.138 - 00:16:16.694
And this, in my opinion, was not worth it at all.
And now that I think about it, like after once I remembered how it all went down, I did do remember thinking back on loving the movies, hating the ending.
Speaker A
00:16:16.742 - 00:16:17.478
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:16:17.654 - 00:16:30.630
And. And this, this kind of just reminded me and kind of solidified that of. Right.
This is why it's dropped so low because I think subconsciously I just kept remembering the payoff wasn't going to be worth it.
Speaker A
00:16:30.750 - 00:16:40.166
Yeah. Another thing too is even though she mentions the daughter on occasion, there's not. It's interesting how the goal changes. Like, yeah.
The movie's called Kill Bill.
Speaker B
00:16:40.238 - 00:16:40.534
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:16:40.582 - 00:16:42.822
But it all of a sudden is like, I want my daughter.
Speaker B
00:16:42.886 - 00:16:43.324
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:16:43.422 - 00:16:59.248
And I know that there are moments where you. She. She expresses, you know, sadness over losing her daughter, like, and that happens.
But I'm never convinced that that's the target goal of this movie. And then it kind of shifts on us last minute, like anticlimactic death. And then it's about the daughter.
Speaker B
00:16:59.344 - 00:16:59.760
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:16:59.840 - 00:17:06.320
You know, it's not that I didn't buy it. I actually thought it was pretty sweet, like, as a father. But at the same time, I was like, wow, they kind of changed up the goal on me here.
Speaker B
00:17:06.360 - 00:17:17.526
Well, it could have been built up better because I think. I think she could have had.
I think she could have still had the goal of killing Bill, but also spent the entire first movie mourning the death of her child.
Speaker A
00:17:17.598 - 00:17:18.118
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:17:18.214 - 00:17:51.822
Because in her mind, her child is dead. Her child died, and she almost died, and the child doesn't exist.
And so I think if the entire first movie subliminally had been her mourning the death of this child, then that makes the discovery of the child even worse. Like, for me, as a viewer. Because you watched her move on, and then suddenly she's forced to go back into this place where like. No, no, no.
Your daughter's actually here. I think, again, lot of missed opportunities with this one. With. With both volumes. But, like, especially with. When it comes to the payoff.
Speaker A
00:17:51.886 - 00:17:52.366
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:17:52.478 - 00:17:57.758
I just. I think it misses the mark, especially compared to every other Tarantino movie.
Speaker A
00:17:57.854 - 00:17:59.022
Well, you guys go ahead.
Speaker C
00:17:59.126 - 00:18:25.528
I was. And at the time, I like, was that the point?
It's like all of these fight sequences from the first movie and just how badass to have it end in just, like, a subtle conversation about Superman and then like, just so anticlimactic at the end. At the time, I thought that was an interesting way to do that. I don't know. There was something deeply human about it at the time.
Speaker B
00:18:25.584 - 00:18:26.220
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:18:26.560 - 00:18:33.854
I get anyone's that might have, like, any sort of criticisms about that, but at the same time, it's like, they're wrong.
Speaker B
00:18:33.902 - 00:18:34.890
But I get it.
Speaker C
00:18:35.590 - 00:18:37.310
It's okay to be dumb with your.
Speaker B
00:18:37.350 - 00:18:41.230
Accounts, as Kyle knows, every single day.
Speaker A
00:18:41.350 - 00:18:48.174
Yeah, Yeah, I know. Speaking of being wrong, you know, the.
Speaker B
00:18:48.182 - 00:18:50.734
People who don't listen to movie wars, they're wrong.
Speaker A
00:18:50.782 - 00:18:57.570
They're wrong. Have you ever thought about sending this to someone and you didn't, and then that person got hit by a train the next day? Think about it.
Speaker B
00:18:57.610 - 00:19:00.642
You could have saved them. You could have been listening to this and not hit the train.
Speaker A
00:19:00.706 - 00:19:18.994
Could have. And also just. Just Wait till the train goes, but don't try to outrun the train. This is a PSA now, officially, this is even about Movie Wars.
Don't race the train. Nine times out of 10 you're driving a Corolla or a Volkswagen. You don't have the power. There's not a ramp. It's not a movie.
This isn't Hard Target with Jean Claude Van Damme.
Speaker B
00:19:19.042 - 00:19:19.570
No, sir.
Speaker A
00:19:19.650 - 00:19:22.034
This is real life. Listen to Movie Wars.
Speaker C
00:19:22.162 - 00:19:30.476
Okay, I definitely do the last thing that he said, but as far as not racing the train, that's kind of pussy behavior, honestly.
Speaker A
00:19:30.508 - 00:19:31.500
Yeah, I.
Speaker C
00:19:31.540 - 00:19:38.220
In a Toyota Corolla, I think you could do a neutral drop. You can beat that train, like, and subscribe to Movie Wars.
Speaker A
00:19:38.300 - 00:19:52.380
It is true some of us are from shitty towns and shitty families like you and I have talked about where all there is to do in town is race the train. The question, the questions. Okay, I want to relate this to Jaws a little bit. Stick with me.
Speaker B
00:19:52.420 - 00:19:52.764
Okay.
Speaker A
00:19:52.812 - 00:20:01.742
The reason Jaws was terrifying at the time is because the shark didn't work and we barely saw Jaws. And actually the limited amount of screen time the shark got led to more terror.
Speaker B
00:20:01.806 - 00:20:02.478
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:20:02.654 - 00:20:20.516
Dave, we talked a lot about how Bill Carradine is presented in the first one. You see the hand, you see the rings. He's talking very, you know, kind of terrifying because you're like, who is this person that. And now kill Bill 2.
We are just knee deep in Bill.
Speaker B
00:20:20.588 - 00:20:21.124
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:20:21.252 - 00:20:39.268
Did that impact? Did we lose some of the terror? I'm not going to lie, because for me, I love Carradine and I love how he plays him.
But I'm also feeling like, man, we all sudden, we went from kind of like that mystery of Bill to like, God, there's a lot of Bill. I know we're trying to kill him. That's the point. But it was kind of a drastic change and I don't know how I feel about it.
Speaker B
00:20:39.324 - 00:20:52.078
Well, for me, when I first saw it, I had no idea who he was as an actor. So it's one of those things where you're like expecting the reason they're not showing him is because they want to show you someone famous.
Speaker A
00:20:52.174 - 00:20:52.590
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:20:52.670 - 00:21:04.158
And then for me, obviously, now I know how famous of a guy he is, especially in the kung fu genre. But like, for me, I just, I was like, who. Who the fuck is this hippie guy?
Speaker A
00:21:04.254 - 00:21:04.606
Right?
Speaker B
00:21:04.678 - 00:21:16.908
He's like. I was expecting like a Mickey Rourke kind of really menacing looking motherfucker. And then he just looks, he.
He looks like he teaches yoga at a Hippie retreat. Like, he doesn't.
Speaker C
00:21:17.004 - 00:21:25.548
Makes it more menacing in a weird way. It's like this, this guy is in charge of all of these assassins, but he's just this chill dude.
Speaker B
00:21:25.644 - 00:21:38.764
Yeah. I think he.
I think they also, if you're gonna put that much of him in the movie, I think they could have done a better job showing what his organization of assassins does.
Speaker A
00:21:38.852 - 00:21:39.458
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:21:39.604 - 00:22:03.446
It's just like, I don't buy that he's actually the Charlie of Charlie's Angels. Like, I don't buy that he's the guy behind the greatest assassins that have ever existed.
There's nothing about him that made him scary because, like, oh, who were we talking about recently? We were talking about Philip Seymour Hoffman in Before the Devil Knows yous Dead.
Speaker A
00:22:03.478 - 00:22:03.910
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:22:03.990 - 00:22:39.432
And how his low tone is so fucking scary that it feels like he's screaming at you when he's whispering. And in this, I just. I felt like he was gonna tell me that the vibes were weird. Like, I didn't ever feel like he could kill you with his finger.
Like, I don't know. It just, it, it. All of it was very anticlimactic for me. And then as you said, to show so much of him, but also really nothing.
Like, you don't get a sense of what the history of.
Speaker C
00:22:39.616 - 00:22:40.936
Where did this guy come from?
Speaker B
00:22:41.008 - 00:22:41.256
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:22:41.288 - 00:22:48.088
What's his history? Other than he seems to be respected by, you know, the. All of the heavy players, you know.
Speaker B
00:22:48.144 - 00:22:51.784
Who as far as this movie are concerned are all pussies compared to Uma Thurman.
Speaker C
00:22:51.832 - 00:22:52.232
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:22:52.296 - 00:23:08.782
Because she kills all of them. Like, it just. There's. There's a lot of good with both of these movies, but it just.
The whole last act, I think was a massive fuck up as far as the payoff of what he set up.
Speaker C
00:23:08.886 - 00:23:36.864
Yeah, I get where you're coming from 100%. But as I've kind of. As I became a father, there are pieces of it that I didn't appreciate before that I'm kind of digging nowadays.
And just this notion of. Because I think he's revealing a lot of.
About himself and his own relationship proclivities and the issues that he would have because he's not an assassin. But in a lot of ways, the life of a creative and a filmmaker is going to have a lot of parallels to living as an assassin.
Speaker B
00:23:36.912 - 00:23:37.376
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:23:37.488 - 00:23:54.868
And so you needed a context for like, how did these two, like, what did they even have in common with one another? So you got a lot of that.
You got maybe to an excessive degree, who Knows I have a hard time being objective about it because it was like such a, such a part of my 20s, man.
Speaker B
00:23:54.924 - 00:23:55.560
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:23:55.900 - 00:24:09.200
Should this have been consolidated? Would have been better.
Now granted, I know you've said a few times that like it should have been a certain length if it was done, but would this been a better if the original vision was seen through where it was released as one film?
Speaker B
00:24:09.660 - 00:24:55.956
I think, I think it would have. Even if it was still at this. I, I really would like to see the whole bloody cut because I would like to see.
Because I feel like he probably takes out that scene of Uma Thurman in the car narrating what already happened because we're just cutting straight to the next thing. I could be wrong, I don't know.
But I like, I feel like for some reason I feel like it being one movie would have made the four hours a little more acceptable for me. But for whatever reason, because it was put into two again, I still think it would have been a better movie at 2, 45 or 3 hours.
But I think having everything go in one fluid timeline would have made a little, made it a little better for me.
Speaker C
00:24:56.028 - 00:25:30.668
Yeah, I, at the time, I remember just, I was so enamored with the first one that it was like a full year before we got to get the payoff for that story. And so I don't know, that might have helped me buy in a little bit more to the slower parts that seem mismatched from the first movie at the time.
Because it's like now I'm in, I'm approaching it with a whole new set of eyes. I've had a year to digest what happened in the first one, but yeah, it would have been a cool like three hour long epic.
Yeah, you know, that would have been really cool. I, I, yeah, I think that would have been a better movie ultimately.
Speaker A
00:25:30.764 - 00:25:37.388
Yeah, I think it would have been interesting how the, the, the east west dynamic, like seeing that in real time.
Speaker B
00:25:37.444 - 00:25:37.676
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:25:37.708 - 00:25:38.524
Would have been really cool.
Speaker C
00:25:38.572 - 00:25:38.796
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:25:38.828 - 00:25:50.044
Because you talked about in the last episode about the, the way the sound editing shifted and all of a sudden all the swords and the blood, all the sounds are so accentuated and it's really cartoony. Yeah.
Speaker B
00:25:50.092 - 00:25:50.556
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:25:50.668 - 00:25:54.812
Like, I actually think it would have been cool mid film, all of a sudden we're now on this western.
Speaker B
00:25:54.876 - 00:25:55.340
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:25:55.420 - 00:25:58.460
Editing style. Like actually I think I could see that being really interesting.
Speaker B
00:25:58.540 - 00:26:17.952
Yeah. Now, yeah, I, I, like I said, I just feel like this should have been a fluid story.
And I get, other than Lord of the Rings, people weren't really putting out four hour movies back then. I'm sure it was a fight for James Cameron to get Titanic as long as it was, but, yeah, I think as a singular movie, it would have made more sense.
Speaker A
00:26:18.096 - 00:26:18.656
Nice.
Speaker B
00:26:18.768 - 00:26:19.488
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:26:19.664 - 00:26:25.952
Rando, rando, randos. Oh, my gosh, you're so in. I love it. I love him.
Speaker B
00:26:25.976 - 00:26:28.144
One cup of coffee and he's like, he's.
Speaker A
00:26:28.192 - 00:26:49.568
Let's go. He's jazzed, bruh. I just said breath.
My son is really into, like, Fortnite culture and so, like, I hear him say things and I just adopt him because I'm trying to relate to him at a spiritual level. Trying to be a good dad. Trying to be a good dad. It's so hard. Let's just say this. Our kids love stupid. Yeah, they're just stupid.
Speaker C
00:26:49.664 - 00:26:55.040
You try to guide them to the good things and then they're just like, they'll jump face first into the dumbest.
Speaker B
00:26:55.120 - 00:26:56.624
I mean, you like robocop, so, I.
Speaker A
00:26:56.632 - 00:27:07.856
Mean, I know I showed my son I've got RoboCop action figures on my shelf and I. I hand him the steelbook edition 4K. To my son, it's like, someday we're gonna watch it. And he goes, yeah, yeah, let's get the out of my house.
Speaker B
00:27:08.008 - 00:27:09.680
You are no longer my son.
Speaker A
00:27:09.840 - 00:27:11.468
Go. Go play Fortnite.
Speaker C
00:27:11.664 - 00:27:16.596
You learn to be more enthusiastic about the films. Paul Verhoeven, we're done.
Speaker A
00:27:16.748 - 00:27:25.480
Yeah, go play Fortnite in a tent in tent city and see how that works for you. You're spoiled. I kid. I'm kidding. I love my kids.
Speaker C
00:27:25.820 - 00:27:29.844
You gotta see the disclosure. I'm not gonna put that same disclosure at the end of my statement.
Speaker B
00:27:30.012 - 00:27:31.120
Y'all know.
Speaker A
00:27:31.420 - 00:27:34.080
Y'all know love is redefined in our house.
Speaker B
00:27:34.780 - 00:27:35.828
Oh, my God.
Speaker A
00:27:35.924 - 00:27:57.296
Pulp Fiction was what spawned the idea originally for the the Bride.
Specifically, Uma Thurman and Tarantino, they were in a conversation on the set of Pulp Fiction, and he told her that he wanted to do like a 1970s kung fu revenge movie. And Thurman then said she had envisioned a character, a bride who was left for dead on her wedding day.
And so that's actually where the idea for the Bride came from.
Speaker B
00:27:57.368 - 00:27:58.260
That's cool.
Speaker C
00:27:58.760 - 00:28:09.952
True collaboration of, you know, spirits of folks that. I mean, Uma Thurman and Quentin Tarantino coming together with like a unified idea about something. Of course it was going to be epic.
Speaker B
00:28:10.016 - 00:28:23.404
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like the. The birth of how Nolan ended up doing Oppenheimer was because at the end, Tenet Robert Pattinson gave him a book.
I'm pretty sure it was American Prometheus about Oppenheimer. And that's what he was like, oh, yep, let's do this.
Speaker A
00:28:23.492 - 00:28:24.172
That's awesome.
Speaker B
00:28:24.236 - 00:28:24.880
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:28:25.300 - 00:28:32.236
You said this on the last one, Matthew. But Tarantino wanted to overdub Pay May and that. Did I say that, Ray?
Speaker C
00:28:32.268 - 00:28:32.876
PI. Me pie.
Speaker A
00:28:32.908 - 00:28:44.614
Me. My God, it doesn't matter how many times I practice it. But he.
Because he wanted to emulate the poorly overdubbed films of the 70s, the Kung Fu movies, because they were. They were traditionally. That was how it was.
Speaker C
00:28:44.702 - 00:29:02.262
Well, and. But what's fascinating to me is that if you have a certain context for these movies, you don't think of them on the. In the crappy 70s overdubs.
These are rich films with a cinematic roots in Hong Kong cinema. Those Shaw Brothers movies produce some of the most talented directors in cinema.
Speaker B
00:29:02.326 - 00:29:02.806
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:29:02.918 - 00:29:41.634
So, you know, you've got Lau Karl and Chang Che. I've referenced them in the last movies. But the. Their body of work speaks for itself.
And I think that it deserved that original vision and not the hackneyed version that we all think of, because in America, all that stuff got shipped over in crappy overdubs that were often pan and scanned. So you never got a real element for the way that they were doing these in camera editing techniques for the fight sequences.
You never knew some of the artistry that went into those kung fu movies. And I feel like allowing it to have that Gordon Liu soundtrack kind of gave it the respect that I feel it deserves.
Speaker A
00:29:41.762 - 00:29:42.930
And he's just hilarious.
Speaker C
00:29:43.010 - 00:29:45.906
Yeah, he's. He does a fantastic job with his laugh.
Speaker A
00:29:46.018 - 00:29:50.230
Yeah. Well, how does he. How does he even do it? I can't even do his laugh.
Speaker B
00:29:53.850 - 00:29:56.030
Welcome to the Matthew Make Sounds Hour.
Speaker C
00:30:00.420 - 00:30:08.668
I think adding Tarantino voiceovers to anything kind of just sullies it a little bit.
Speaker B
00:30:08.724 - 00:30:16.588
I mean, my only fault with Django Unchained is his terrible Australian accent. It's awful. It's like, why are you Australian, first off?
Speaker C
00:30:16.644 - 00:30:16.924
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:30:16.972 - 00:30:19.800
Like, you're in America. Just be a American.
Speaker A
00:30:20.180 - 00:30:20.604
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:30:20.652 - 00:30:27.100
He inserts himself into any situation where he can say the N word firsthand. Whatever accent he needs to do that.
Speaker B
00:30:27.140 - 00:30:30.230
With, he's like, it's part of the movie. Okay.
Speaker C
00:30:30.650 - 00:30:32.430
It's got context and history.
Speaker A
00:30:32.970 - 00:31:00.818
He even did that with his rewrite because, you know, he did the script polish for the ending of Crimson Tide, and he was the one that put the black horse, white horse comment in there. The whole movie. The whole movie. There's never been a mention of race between Gene Hackman and Denzel.
And then Tarantino rewrote the ending, and all of a sudden it's like, well, there's white horses and there's black horses. So he even inserted himself there. And he's not even in there. He's not even directing. He's just writing it.
Speaker B
00:31:00.874 - 00:31:02.034
Oh, my God, that's funny.
Speaker C
00:31:02.082 - 00:31:07.586
Why does this guy get a pass from everybody? He's just sprinkling racism and all of this stuff.
Speaker A
00:31:07.698 - 00:31:12.946
I just imagine him sitting there with his director headphones on and, like, someone's supposed to say the N word. And that's when he's like, you know what? You can't do that.
Speaker C
00:31:13.018 - 00:31:13.922
I got it.
Speaker A
00:31:13.946 - 00:31:14.850
I come out.
Speaker B
00:31:14.970 - 00:31:19.906
I'll bite the bullet. I'll say it. Just. I'll take. I can handle the canceling. Let me say it.
Speaker A
00:31:19.978 - 00:31:23.250
Okay. You go get an agma muffin. Okay. Because apparently you can't get that. Okay.
Speaker B
00:31:23.330 - 00:31:28.222
Jamie Foxx gave me a path pass. Okay. I have a punch card.
Speaker C
00:31:28.366 - 00:31:34.718
And this was pre clone Jamie Fox. So this is like original Jamie Fox. He's got a pass.
Speaker B
00:31:34.854 - 00:31:35.570
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:31:36.230 - 00:31:51.614
Because I think you and I both have Django on our list. And I like, I. I both can't wait to tackle that movie.
But I'm also, like, scared shitless to talk just because of the subject and because Quentin directed it. I'm just like, how do we go about that in a meaningful way and not piss off many groups of people?
Speaker B
00:31:51.702 - 00:31:53.050
Nah, let's piss him off.
Speaker A
00:31:53.190 - 00:31:53.826
Yes.
Speaker B
00:31:53.938 - 00:31:54.990
Burn it down.
Speaker A
00:31:55.450 - 00:32:07.106
Yeah. The finishing move. You actually said this in the last one, too.
But speaking of Shaw Brothers, Executioners from Shaolin and Clan of the White Lotus is where that move, the five finger palm heart explosion move comes from.
Speaker B
00:32:07.178 - 00:32:07.714
Nice.
Speaker C
00:32:07.842 - 00:32:35.100
And in Fist of the White Lotus or Slash, Clan of the White Lotus, it had two titles. I can't remember which one was the Eastern or the. But in any case, it was 99 or it was 100 steps, I guess, and the guy only took 99 steps.
And then he was healed through acupuncture and traditional medicine and went on to have his final showdown with Pai Mei, who could canically suck his balls up into his body. So I love that rich cinema history, folks.
Speaker A
00:32:35.180 - 00:32:41.212
So rich. Would you call it turtling? His balls. Incredible.
Speaker B
00:32:41.356 - 00:32:43.520
He gave himself a ball giant.
Speaker A
00:32:44.820 - 00:32:57.324
Oh, my gosh. One of my favorite side characters in volume one was the. The Sheriff or the. The Ranger of whatever you want to call. But Michael Parks. But he also.
He played in both movies. He also is Esteban in this movie.
Speaker B
00:32:57.452 - 00:32:58.764
Oh, okay.
Speaker C
00:32:58.812 - 00:33:11.660
And the Esteban character is. He only had a little bit of screen time, but it was like wicked of the Weston as far as memorability goes. He just, like.
I don't know, he just embodied that character for that brief moment of time.
Speaker A
00:33:11.780 - 00:33:15.804
Yeah, I love that. I wish that happened more, honestly. I wish more actors would do.
Speaker C
00:33:15.892 - 00:33:16.284
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:33:16.332 - 00:33:21.688
Like, the only one in I can think about is. And it was an accident, was Paul Dano and There Will Be Blood.
Speaker C
00:33:21.784 - 00:33:22.420
Right.
Speaker A
00:33:23.120 - 00:33:33.272
Because Daniel Day Lewis did not get along. Was not playing well with the actor who's supposed to play his brother, Paul, Eli's brother.
And so they just asked Dano to play both of them, which in that.
Speaker C
00:33:33.296 - 00:33:35.640
Movie was kind of confusing. Yeah. But in this.
Speaker B
00:33:35.680 - 00:33:36.024
In.
Speaker C
00:33:36.112 - 00:33:43.736
In these movies where you have Gordon Liu playing two characters and Michael Parks playing two characters, they are singular in both of those roles. I mean, they're.
Speaker A
00:33:43.768 - 00:34:01.814
Yeah, yeah. You would not know if you didn't read it. I had no idea he was both. Yeah. And lastly, this is my favorite rando of basically the entire. Of both movies.
The flute was Carradine's idea because he played a flute in the Kung Fu show in the 70s, and the flute was the one that he made himself for the show in the 70s.
Speaker B
00:34:01.862 - 00:34:02.534
Oh, that's cool.
Speaker A
00:34:02.582 - 00:34:04.982
So it's a flute he made and it was the same exact one.
Speaker B
00:34:05.086 - 00:34:05.510
Nice.
Speaker C
00:34:05.590 - 00:34:06.886
Yep. So it's got history.
Speaker B
00:34:07.038 - 00:34:09.290
Still a terrible scene, but that's cool.
Speaker A
00:34:09.710 - 00:34:11.896
Which one? He has the flute multiple times. Right.
Speaker C
00:34:11.958 - 00:34:15.508
Well, he's at the chapel and again at the campfire before the.
Speaker B
00:34:15.564 - 00:34:17.332
Yeah, the campfire scene specifically.
Speaker A
00:34:17.396 - 00:34:19.876
Yeah. I think it's cool how we meet him with the flute.
Speaker B
00:34:19.988 - 00:34:20.324
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:34:20.372 - 00:34:29.972
Yeah.
And for me, I geeked out on all of those Clan of the White Lotus little tidbits that he was talking about because he was, like, talking about the plot of that particular movie and I was a fan of that movie.
Speaker B
00:34:30.036 - 00:34:30.680
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:34:31.100 - 00:34:39.735
Shall we meet our child that was supposed to be dead? Shall we shoot each other with a needle full of truth serum and tell the truth about the war card?
Speaker B
00:34:39.827 - 00:34:41.327
Oh, you're gonna get the truth for me.
Speaker A
00:34:41.383 - 00:34:50.223
Oh, yeah. Let's kill the war card. Let's go. As a reminder, that really was a Hanzo sword. Is our positive.
Speaker B
00:34:50.271 - 00:34:50.495
Yes.
Speaker A
00:34:50.527 - 00:34:51.055
Affirmative.
Speaker C
00:34:51.087 - 00:34:51.391
Love it.
Speaker A
00:34:51.415 - 00:35:11.018
And then you don't have a future is our negative call one. So. And also for the category, just a heads up, because we have one.
We know that both these films are considered one in the run of 10 films, but we're still going to treat them differently, as if. If they're top five. So we'll Just do that theoretically, even though they are, you know, it's one consolidated. Yeah.
Speaker C
00:35:11.114 - 00:35:17.978
Two podcast episodes. So, Yeah, I think people will refer to the movies by the Movie wars podcast episodes going forward.
Speaker A
00:35:18.034 - 00:35:21.830
They will. Yeah. Because I think this is episode 80 and 81. So.
Speaker B
00:35:23.890 - 00:35:26.346
Should wait and make it 87 and 88.
Speaker A
00:35:26.498 - 00:35:39.596
Yes. And I'm not going to do what I did on the last one. Top Kill Bill cast. And that cast is Uma Thurman, David Carradine, Michael Matson.
Gotten to the top as.
Speaker B
00:35:39.668 - 00:35:40.284
As Bud.
Speaker A
00:35:40.372 - 00:35:42.684
Yeah, as Bud. I have a lot of thoughts on Bud.
Speaker B
00:35:42.772 - 00:36:02.694
Yeah, they, you know, Bud is actually my favorite character. Really? Of. Yeah. Of all the, The Assassin Quad. I, I, I love his just nonchalantness.
How, how even when he literally gets fired from his job, he's just like, I don't care.
Speaker C
00:36:02.782 - 00:36:03.142
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:36:03.206 - 00:36:22.214
Like, fuck all of this. I give no shits.
And it carried through into him walking into his trailer and her about to bust in, and then he just is just sitting there like, it's no big deal. He was going to wait there all night. Like, if she hadn't been there, he was going to sit there all night until morning, and then he was.
All right, I guess we're good.
Speaker A
00:36:22.302 - 00:36:22.710
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:36:22.790 - 00:36:31.386
Like, it's just, he, he cared so little and yet did so much. Yeah, no, I love him. I think he's. He, he was fantastic.
Speaker A
00:36:31.578 - 00:36:33.546
He was a vindictive guy, too.
Speaker B
00:36:33.618 - 00:36:51.834
So Hanzo for me, everyone, I think, I think Uma Thurman ended up delivering a significantly better performance in this half than she did in the first half. The first half wasn't good. It wasn't bad, don't get me wrong. But this, this one, I think, took it to a whole other level.
Speaker A
00:36:51.922 - 00:36:54.490
Yeah, they asked her to do more on this one to show more emotions.
Speaker B
00:36:54.570 - 00:36:59.710
Yeah. Yeah. The other one was her fighting. This was her acting, and I liked it a lot.
Speaker A
00:36:59.750 - 00:37:00.286
Okay.
Speaker C
00:37:00.398 - 00:37:16.942
Yeah, I, I go full Hanzo on this as well. This is one of Michael Madsen's career performances, I feel.
You know, just even that little snippet at the end of the first movie where it was like a year before I got to see this character on screen, where it's like, that woman deserves her revenge.
Speaker B
00:37:17.006 - 00:37:17.390
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:37:17.470 - 00:37:20.462
We deserve to die. That was such a badass little moment.
Speaker B
00:37:20.526 - 00:37:21.118
Oh, yeah.
Speaker C
00:37:21.214 - 00:37:52.078
And just the. I got a different impression than you, though, on the.
He just seemed like a schmuck, like a, Like a complete loser until that moment to where he realizes who he had been in with that rock salt shotgun and finally came back into his own but just taking crap from everybody at the strip club and just being demoralized. And the story of the hat where, you know, Michael Madsen wanted to wear that cowboy hat, and then Tarantino hated.
Speaker B
00:37:52.094 - 00:37:54.108
It, so he wrote it.
Speaker C
00:37:54.244 - 00:38:12.892
Wrote it into the movie that he hated it. And he's just like this. This guy who had been.
Who supposedly, by all accounts, was supposed to be this badass, but now he's, like, the shittiest employee in the strip club and just a complete loser who's just being, you know, brought down in every turn.
Speaker B
00:38:12.996 - 00:38:14.700
And yet he's the only one who won.
Speaker C
00:38:14.820 - 00:38:16.316
And he's the only one who won.
Speaker B
00:38:16.388 - 00:38:18.652
He didn't lose the fight against. He won against her.
Speaker C
00:38:18.756 - 00:38:21.296
Yeah. She did not kill him. Yeah, she did not.
Speaker B
00:38:21.368 - 00:38:35.600
And, like, I. I don't think it's him being a loser. I think it's him.
Now that she's gone and they've all kind of dispersed and done their own thing, I think he's just. He's realized his life has peaked, and from here forward, he's just living until he's dying.
Speaker C
00:38:35.680 - 00:38:37.008
What. Which are Arya.
Speaker B
00:38:37.104 - 00:38:47.754
Yeah. And so I don't know. That's. I think that's what I loved about him is I could very clearly see the. I was somebody in his entire performance.
Speaker A
00:38:47.922 - 00:38:48.314
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:38:48.362 - 00:38:55.146
And then the moment he was able to prove that he was somebody, it's over. It just. He came right back, and I. It's so good.
Speaker A
00:38:55.218 - 00:38:55.898
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:38:56.074 - 00:39:07.162
I think he has the most development in the shortest amount of time, and I wish all of the other characters had been condensed the same way. His head.
Speaker A
00:39:07.266 - 00:39:09.274
Yeah. So you're both Hanzo.
Speaker B
00:39:09.322 - 00:39:09.546
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:39:09.578 - 00:39:10.026
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:39:10.138 - 00:39:37.430
Yeah. I. It's funny. I agree with you. I actually. It was the first time. It's funny because I'm loving the background and the history.
I'm loving learning about these characters, but he's a character I wish I. I would have learned more about, because I would have known, because visually and just how he's presented today, I can't see this.
You know, when he asked. When. When Bill asked him how his sword play is, and apparently he was just. He was worthy of a Hanzo sword. At one point, I'm like, I want to.
I want to see that.
Speaker B
00:39:37.470 - 00:39:37.686
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:39:37.718 - 00:39:45.242
You know, it's like, it was the only time I didn't get the history that I wanted it, but I also was thinking, well, he's also kind of handicapped by the fact that he's Bill's brother.
Speaker B
00:39:45.306 - 00:39:45.594
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:39:45.642 - 00:39:50.506
And a lot of the movie is predicated on the mystery of Bill's Background. So, like, if they go into him.
Speaker B
00:39:50.578 - 00:39:50.874
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:39:50.922 - 00:39:53.706
They'd have to give us more. That means they'd have to give us a lot about Bill.
Speaker B
00:39:53.778 - 00:39:54.298
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:39:54.394 - 00:39:54.746
So.
Speaker B
00:39:54.818 - 00:39:57.930
But I kind of wish they did. I wish Tarantino had done more.
Speaker A
00:39:58.050 - 00:39:58.634
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:39:58.762 - 00:40:09.506
Well, and with Bud, it's.
It's kind of again, harkens back to those 70s Charles Bronson esque characters where it's like, yeah, he seems like a loser now, but you know everything you need to know about the guy and what he.
Speaker A
00:40:09.538 - 00:40:10.018
He's done.
Speaker B
00:40:10.074 - 00:40:10.594
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:40:10.722 - 00:40:11.074
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:40:11.122 - 00:40:28.722
I mean, it's kind of like that moment in man of Steel where the guy pours the beer over Clark and Clark's like, I know I could do it. And he just walks out and then smashes his truck through all the logs. Like, it's that same kind of thing where he's.
He's helpless because he knows if he lifts a finger, everyone's gonna die.
Speaker A
00:40:28.786 - 00:40:29.426
Yep.
Speaker B
00:40:29.538 - 00:40:41.148
Like, he's so dangerous. And. And you get that through all of his subtlety, you get that he could win that fight if he decided he wanted to go into it.
Speaker A
00:40:41.284 - 00:40:46.236
Yeah. I just looked at IMDb. Madsen has 345 acting credits.
Speaker B
00:40:46.268 - 00:41:01.580
Yep, yep. No, I scrolled through his entire filmography today. Like, it's. It's incredible. It's. Again, it's. It's weird because I feel like.
I feel like there's some movie that is, like, very poignant for me that I. That I remember him from, but I can't remember what fucking movie it was.
Speaker A
00:41:01.620 - 00:41:45.474
Yeah, I mean, he's done tv, he's done all. He. I don't think he turns down work. I. One thing I didn't point out either, I. So I'm also full on Hanzo sword here.
One thing that Uma has done in all of her Tarantino collaborations and. And she does it when she sees her daughter is that, like, she's acted a pretty certain way most of the movie.
And then she completely almost takes you out of the movie. Like, I'm not gonna say break down the fourth wall, but kind of a version of that. Like. And the other version of this is when she ODs in Pulp Fiction.
Yeah, like that part of that movie. All of a sudden, like, she's. She's this very glamorous, you know, kind of like ethereal woman. And then she's like very human OD's.
And then all of a sudden it's a very different movie. That was the moment for me too, when she sees the daughter and cries. Like, all of a sudden she's putting on this new. I'm like, holy shit.
Speaker B
00:41:45.522 - 00:41:45.746
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:41:45.778 - 00:41:48.978
Like, she totally took me out of this movie in a good way. I was like, wow.
Speaker B
00:41:49.074 - 00:41:56.746
See, that's where I think it could have been even more powerful if we'd actually seen her mourning the loss of her dog.
Speaker A
00:41:56.778 - 00:41:57.370
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:41:57.530 - 00:42:03.306
Because, like, I. That as good as it was, I still felt like it could have been more.
Speaker A
00:42:03.378 - 00:42:15.114
Yeah. Yeah. I.
You know, foreshadowing is an interesting thing and an interesting mechanism in movies, and it's usually used and there isn't any foreshadowing for the daughter being alive. Still, at least I didn't see any.
Speaker B
00:42:15.202 - 00:42:17.002
Well, until him saying at the end.
Speaker C
00:42:17.026 - 00:42:17.834
Of the first movie.
Speaker A
00:42:17.882 - 00:42:18.106
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:42:18.138 - 00:42:19.514
She know her daughter is still alive.
Speaker A
00:42:19.562 - 00:42:20.106
Yeah. That.
Speaker C
00:42:20.178 - 00:42:26.924
That's the only tell. And then for me, at the end of that first movie, it's like, oh, shit, now we're going to. Now go somewhere.
Speaker A
00:42:27.052 - 00:42:27.452
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:42:27.516 - 00:42:42.012
And again, that could have been such a cool moment if, like, the payoff of the first movie is her, like, moving on from her daughter being dead and then does she know her daughter's still alive? Boom.
Speaker A
00:42:42.076 - 00:42:42.604
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:42:42.732 - 00:42:47.686
Like, that would have been. If I had seen that in theaters, I would have lost my mind.
Speaker C
00:42:47.758 - 00:42:48.486
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:42:48.678 - 00:43:00.998
So I don't know. It just. Again, this is where I also don't think. And I know he.
He shot it as one movie, so it is what it is, but it's like neither of these can stand on their own. You can't watch Kill Bill 1.
Speaker A
00:43:01.054 - 00:43:01.574
It's true.
Speaker B
00:43:01.622 - 00:43:03.766
And not need to watch Kill Bill 2.
Speaker A
00:43:03.838 - 00:43:04.086
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:43:04.118 - 00:43:13.152
But, like, I could watch Fellowship of the Ring and then wait a month and watch Two Towers and then wait a month, like, and not feel like I'm missing any. Anything.
Speaker A
00:43:13.216 - 00:43:15.280
Yeah, it's definitely a very much a flow.
Speaker B
00:43:15.360 - 00:43:15.664
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:43:15.712 - 00:43:41.410
Yeah. One to zero. And we have some of the same supporting guests, although l play.
But Daryl Hannah, she was top Bill last time, and now she's supporting Daryl Hannah. Ambrosia Kelly as Nikki Viva a Fox as Vernita Green. Again, Michael parks is Earl McGraw. And as. Am I looking at the right one?
It still hasn't listed as Earl McGraw. Oh, I guess they did allude back to Earl McGraw in the first one. And he's also Esteban.
Speaker B
00:43:41.490 - 00:43:41.842
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:43:41.906 - 00:43:49.634
James parks is Edgar McGraw and then Jonathan Lundgren as a trucker. And I think from there we're good. Actually. No. Who played Pie man?
Speaker B
00:43:49.722 - 00:43:50.178
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:43:50.274 - 00:43:53.590
Gordon Lou. Right. Gordon Lou. We got to talk about Gordon Lou.
Speaker B
00:43:54.010 - 00:44:15.178
Yeah. I think again, same with the first one. I think the entire cast brought nothing but the best to. To everything. That they were given.
Again, every character is memorable for some reason, even down to the strip club owners owner. Like. Like he's very memorable. And not for. Not. Not even in like a good or a bad way. It's just. You will remember that character no matter what.
Speaker C
00:44:15.234 - 00:44:18.042
He doesn't exist in any other movie. He's a guy who talks like that.
Speaker B
00:44:18.066 - 00:44:18.634
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:44:18.762 - 00:44:20.874
And you hear about as useless.
Speaker A
00:44:21.002 - 00:44:21.642
It's like.
Speaker C
00:44:21.746 - 00:44:23.530
It's just drunken nonsense.
Speaker B
00:44:23.610 - 00:44:34.106
Yeah. He's like both your typical strip club owner character, but also the complete opposite at the same time. Like, it's so. Yeah, I. Yeah. Hanzo for me.
I think everyone did fucking great.
Speaker C
00:44:34.178 - 00:45:21.060
Hanzo for me as well. And Daryl Hannah doing some amazing things in this movie.
And supporting cast, as far as the gritty nature that they brought to that trailer fight is unlike anything that you're going to see in cinema because it's all so confined and it's also everything around you is fragile. But there are these two behemoths going after one another and destroying this trailer.
But she has some nuance to her performance as well because she does respect the bride character. She does respect Beatrix Kiddo. And of course you've got Gordon Liu in that Pai Mei.
It's incredible because there's a history there that goes beyond it's. I mean, there are meta elements that make it great, but at the same time, he's delivering a really awesome performance.
Speaker A
00:45:21.180 - 00:45:24.724
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You go, so you go Hanzo.
Speaker C
00:45:24.772 - 00:45:25.236
Hanzo.
Speaker A
00:45:25.268 - 00:45:55.028
Yeah, I go Hanzo as well. I.
You know the first one I talked about how Hanzo himself was my favorite arc and my favorite like history part, that was me for Pai Mei as well, adding a really. Not only a great like reverence for the 70s kung fu stuff, but just a lot of hilarity. Although I'm a little.
And we'll get to this in writing, I was a little shocked that he was so easily died, but died to poison. It just feels like he should have seen everything at this point. And like the fact that that's what took him down kind of shocked me.
Speaker B
00:45:55.084 - 00:45:55.460
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:45:55.540 - 00:46:12.922
But he is hilarious. Really great character. And honestly, I just think fully developed. Like he. He had such an ethos and like a legendary about him that I.
I don't know why. I was just fully bought in. Yeah. And those scenes with him are my favorite scenes in volume two. So I go full Hanzo.
Speaker B
00:46:12.986 - 00:46:13.658
Hell yeah.
Speaker A
00:46:13.754 - 00:46:16.830
Riding Mr. Quentin Tarantino.
Speaker B
00:46:17.650 - 00:46:36.054
Yeah. Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to go. Who don't have a future on this one was even more disappointing. For me than the first one. As far as just.
Again, if the. If. If your entire climax is going to be the last hour of the film, make it worth it.
Speaker A
00:46:36.142 - 00:46:36.550
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:46:36.630 - 00:46:46.358
But even. Even down to the conversations they were having, I was just bored.
I was so bored for the last hour of the movie that I probably skipped 20 minutes of it.
Speaker C
00:46:46.494 - 00:46:47.094
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:46:47.222 - 00:47:21.786
Just of those conversations. There was a lot of good there. Still, like every interaction she had with the daughter.
I loved the moment where Bill is telling the daughter that he shot her. Like, I think it's a lot of. That is so well done. But not only is.
Is just that last hour, for the most part, incredibly boring to me, but even the death like it. Like I said earlier, the death just so bad. In my opinion. I think that death scene should go down as. As bad as Talia al Ghul in Dark Knight Rises.
Speaker A
00:47:21.818 - 00:47:22.650
Oh, interesting.
Speaker B
00:47:22.730 - 00:47:30.474
Like that is how anticlimactic and, and awful that ending looked for me. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna have to go.
Speaker A
00:47:30.642 - 00:47:31.242
Interesting.
Speaker B
00:47:31.306 - 00:47:31.950
Okay.
Speaker C
00:47:32.850 - 00:47:57.690
Yeah. I'm going Hanzo, because I am a Pollyanna fanboy. It's just, I can't.
I can't see this in anything in a positive light for me because as I grow older with the film, then so do some of my perceptions about, like, trying to exist as a creative artist and a father and, you know, as a parent. It's, It's. It is a very anticlimactic living.
Speaker B
00:47:57.770 - 00:47:58.170
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:47:58.250 - 00:47:58.538
When.
Speaker C
00:47:58.594 - 00:48:51.990
When you're living that life and as a parent and then, you know, so now you've got the two of them off on their Shogun assassin adventures, and so who knows what that will bring. But there are some naturalistic dialogue elements this, this film goes from.
You know, you've got Hong Kong influences, obviously, in the Pai Mei sequences, but then you've also got just like, trash, exploitation stuff in the strip club scenes and just the dialogue around as they're burying. When they're burying Beatrix alive. I know guys like this. I hung out with guys like this. They weren't burying bodies when I was there.
But there's just a naturalistic element to the dialogue that you'll find in Quentin Tarantino movies where, you know, he makes every. Every outlaw character becomes a pop culture nerd. And that's. That's what he does. So.
Speaker B
00:48:52.030 - 00:49:43.664
Yeah, I don't know, like, as sure, the dialog itself is fine, but the pacing of the story and that really. That. That really begins at the script.
I know the editing is going to have a lot to do with that, but at the same time, the pacing of the story itself begins with the script. And this just overall feels like a very uneven story. This doesn't even feel like a director's cut.
It feels like an assembly cut where everything that was filmed was put in. And then he was like, cool, tighten them up a little bit. But we're keeping everything.
We're not getting rid of a single moment of this script that I've written. Normally, when a script or a film ends up being four hours long, you cut it down to three. You cut it down to 245.
You find places where shit needs to be tightened up. And this just. Yeah, this just felt even beyond like an everything cut for me.
Speaker C
00:49:43.752 - 00:49:45.792
Sometimes you gotta let the shit breathe.
Speaker B
00:49:45.936 - 00:50:21.650
Yeah. And sometimes you let it breathe so long that it goes bad. It's like a very fine wine. Like, you let it breathe for 10 minutes too long and it's shit.
It tastes like vinegar. Like, sometimes you just. You gotta ride the line. And he didn't ride it very well. He kept going over and then coming back really well. Sequences.
The whole everything with. With Bud, I think, was very well paced. The one fight scene in the trailer, I think, was incredible.
But the overall pacing, especially of this second one, I think started really well in the first half and really just got overblown in the second half.
Speaker A
00:50:22.510 - 00:50:48.640
Yeah. I actually. I also went, bitch, you don't have a future here. And this. This was really hard for me because I. I so much love.
And the first one, the writing, in terms of the dialogue, I thought the dialogue was near perfect in the. The first one, the chess match was really there. I think it was missing a little bit here. The stuff that I loved was. Wasn't as prevalent in this one.
There were just a couple of moments that kind of threw me off. I'm seeing a lot of stuff I love. Like, I'm loving the pie me thing.
Speaker B
00:50:48.680 - 00:50:49.040
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:50:49.120 - 00:50:57.216
But then when he dies because of Poison, kind of, I was like, literally, like, watching it, and I was like, fucking, wait a second.
Speaker B
00:50:57.288 - 00:50:57.632
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:50:57.696 - 00:51:03.280
So I think that that is probably trying to lend more credence to El Driver as just this evil bitch.
Speaker A
00:51:03.360 - 00:51:03.696
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:51:03.728 - 00:51:13.958
Than it is doing anything for the Pie Me character. So they just dispose of him just to make her have a little more credibility in some way. Because at this point, Poison, like, he would have.
Speaker B
00:51:14.014 - 00:51:15.014
He would have caught that.
Speaker C
00:51:15.102 - 00:51:15.318
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:51:15.334 - 00:51:15.910
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker B
00:51:15.950 - 00:51:19.574
I was a guy that he is. He would not have been fooled by his rice being.
Speaker C
00:51:19.662 - 00:51:30.470
But that's. That's how they all went down in 70s kung fu movies. So there's also that historical aspect. It's like.
It's always like a poison thing or like it's treachery, ultimately. Is treachery.
Speaker B
00:51:30.550 - 00:51:34.858
I honestly probably would have rather had seen her physically stab him in the back. Back.
Speaker C
00:51:34.914 - 00:51:35.514
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker B
00:51:35.562 - 00:51:41.162
I think that would have been. Not even more satisfying. Just like it would have been. It would have sat better with me.
Speaker A
00:51:41.266 - 00:51:51.850
Yeah. He's my favorite part of the second. This second entry. And for him just to have that lackluster. You're right. Right. It does pay cadence.
But I was just kinda like. Or pay. It pays homage back. But I was like, really?
Speaker B
00:51:51.970 - 00:51:52.506
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:51:52.618 - 00:51:59.674
And also back to Elle, who I really loved in the first one. I didn't. I don't love this discourse between her and Bud.
Speaker B
00:51:59.762 - 00:52:00.122
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:52:00.186 - 00:52:25.326
Either. I don't know why I feel like the chess match isn't as good. Maybe it's because Matt's character is so much different than that.
Maybe an Uma would talk to L. And the Mamba thing. I don't know. That trail, that trailer scene to me, between the two of them. I don't know. It just.
Between that and the other one, I was like, this just doesn't hit the same cylinders as the first one for me. So I do think it was a step in the wrong direction. But I do recognize the first one was nearly perfect.
Speaker B
00:52:25.438 - 00:52:45.724
Well, I think this is why it's important to look at both movies as separate movies in addition to being Kill Bill is because they do take on such drastically different. Not even just editing or stylistic tones, but even down to the writing. The tone is so different between the two of them that I don't.
I think because he released them in that way, I think they have to be looked at separately.
Speaker A
00:52:45.772 - 00:52:46.284
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:52:46.412 - 00:52:50.412
He's doing service to the genre which is being portrayed in that particular sequence.
Speaker B
00:52:50.476 - 00:52:51.500
Yeah, it's.
Speaker C
00:52:51.660 - 00:52:54.924
It's all so differently. It's also diametrically opposed.
Speaker A
00:52:55.052 - 00:53:08.454
Yeah. And I also. For some reason, I. I actually love the Carradine stuff at the end. I do. Like, I.
I have not a lot of problems with that itself, but I don't know why, but when he started talking about the Superman comic, I kind of got lost there for a minute.
Speaker B
00:53:08.502 - 00:53:11.094
I think I skipped that in my fast forwarding.
Speaker A
00:53:11.222 - 00:53:20.262
There's a part of that I'm. I'm loving because the chess match is almost restored because now we have these two heavyweights going back and forth.
But when he starts talking about the Superman comic, like, what point is he trying to make?
Speaker B
00:53:20.286 - 00:53:21.030
Yeah, well, the.
Speaker C
00:53:21.070 - 00:53:49.842
The I. I think it's a fantastic point, honestly, is that, you know, all of those superheroes are trying to. The character is the superhero.
The superhero is the character versus the Clark Kent in the Superman scenario. He's. Who's pretending. So she's not gonna be able to operate as a Clark Kent because she's Superman. There's just no way for her to live that.
No way for her to live in that world for very long.
Speaker B
00:53:49.946 - 00:54:04.684
It just feels very strange. Cause now that you say all this, I'm remembering it from my first viewing.
It feels so strange, though, because this entire movie, you've never had pop culture references that on the desk.
Speaker C
00:54:04.732 - 00:54:05.404
Right, right.
Speaker B
00:54:05.492 - 00:54:37.640
As opposed to Pulp Fiction. It's nothing but pop culture references. This is such an isolated.
It is such a fantasy world that sure takes place in the real world, but it's still such a fantasy world that to just out of nowhere be like, it's Superman. That would be like me making a movie that. Yeah.
Like, takes place in modern times and out of nowhere, just being like, you know, those Lord of the Rings movies, that Boromir guy, like, damn. Like, you should be more like Boromir. Like, what the fuck? Why?
Speaker A
00:54:38.420 - 00:54:39.036
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:54:39.148 - 00:54:47.468
And I think it's Tarantino writing himself into the movie at that point, and all of the types of relationship problems that have probably emerged in that guy's life, I can't imagine.
Speaker B
00:54:47.564 - 00:55:36.400
And this is where I'm like, I feel like this is his most overindulgent. Because I've said this before, I think all art has to be self indulgent to a point in order to be unique.
Because if you're making a Marvel movie, you're not really making art. You're making entertainment. It is what it is. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a style of whatever, but you're making something for someone else.
As an artist, if you're going to make art, you should be making it only for you and then letting the rest of the world in on you, doing something for yourself. This and all of Tarantino's movies, I would say, are self indulgent, mostly to a good point.
This, I think, just goes so overboard with all of the indulgence that I just. I feel like it gets lost in its own indulgence.
Speaker A
00:55:36.900 - 00:55:37.420
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:55:37.500 - 00:55:38.988
It insists upon itself.
Speaker B
00:55:39.084 - 00:55:39.760
Yeah.
Speaker A
00:55:41.780 - 00:55:52.844
Yeah. We're insisting upon this category because it's two to one. Wow. Wow. Two to one here. It's going. It's going crazy up in here. All right.
Directing Quentin Tarantino, this is going to.
Speaker B
00:55:52.852 - 00:56:51.310
Be a squeak under for me, this is. It's. There's so much good in it, but just once again, it's overshadowed by a lot of very simple mistakes that someone. Even.
Even of the only movie of his that I've seen before, this one is, is Pulp Fiction, simply based on that movie. And knowing what I know about Reservoir Dogs and having.
Having heard what I've heard about Jackie Brown, I feel like a lot of the mistakes he made were either just negligence or him jacking himself off. Him just being like, oh, this is so good. Make the shot longer. It's just like, come on, bro, you gotta.
There comes a point where you have to tighten it up to tell the best story you can tell. And I don't think he did that. I think he got lost in his own brain as far as this one's concerned.
So a lot of good stuff, a lot of incredible sequences, a lot of very well written characters, but it's. It's just off balance for me. So it's. It's a bitch. You got no future.
Speaker A
00:56:51.430 - 00:56:52.210
Okay?
Speaker C
00:56:52.630 - 00:59:30.828
Tarantino can come all over my face with all of his self indulgence. Like I said, it's. It's not only paying homage to these different genres, but it's also doing so in a way that is creating new.
It's like setting the high water marks for those particular genres. It's like that is a. In the first movie where you have the L driver sequence with the split screen, I'm like, that is a fantastic giallo shot.
Yeah, you'd be hard pressed to find an example of that good of a giallo shot in most giallo films, and most of them are kind of boring. It's the same with all of the kung fu movies. You get the best parts of all of these different genres kind of boiled down to the part that we wanted.
And that's what I loved about it. And, you know, and he might have been a little indulgent at the time, because I think he was kind of.
He was using new colors from the crayon box, so to speak. It's like he had never worked in these genres before, and I think that it's probably something that he had always wanted to do.
I mean, you get a little taste of it with, like, the blaxploitation elements that you find in Jackie Brown, but then you're leaning full into genre territory and you're creating some of the coolest examples of those genres while you're doing it. That's not an easy thing to do. You get a lot of Directors that were like, I'm gonna make this my homage to blaxploitation movies.
And it's like most of the time it sucks to be able to hit it out of the park with a good kung fu sequence, with a good anime sequence, with a good western sequence. It's like to be able to dabble in all of these different genres so effectively, you know, it gets a pass for me. It's, it's like it's.
And I, and I can fully see all of the flaws that you're pointing out in both movies now that I kind of reflect back on them. And I had some pacing issues the first time I, I saw the second one because it's like, oh man, the, that final sequence with Bill.
But I don't know what it has. Maybe as I get older I am slowing down.
So for me it works, you know, and I'm going to have a hard time not giving this one high marks because of what it did for cinema at the time.
And like I said, I'm not going to be able to look at those things objectively in that way because it's like it's, it's the first time you heard the Beatles, man. It's the first, it's the first time you saw like examples of Hong Kong cinema mixed with, with Japanese cinema mixed with western cinema.
And I'm hard pressed to think of modern examples that aren't Tarantino movies that do it as effectively as that one did.
Speaker B
00:59:30.964 - 00:59:38.044
I think for me these should have been two very good 90 minute movies.
Speaker C
00:59:38.092 - 00:59:38.812
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:59:38.876 - 00:59:41.660
And then should have been one four hour cut.
Speaker C
00:59:41.780 - 00:59:47.564
Yeah. I, and I, and I'll grant you all of that. But I will sit for the long cut. I'll sit.
Speaker B
00:59:47.652 - 01:00:05.754
I mean, it's fair. Look, I, again, I'm the same way. I only watch the extended versions, Lord of the Rings.
But it's like, like for this, for, for the medium of separating it into two films. Yeah, I think it should have been two 90 minute movies and then a four hour whole bloody cut like he does.
Speaker C
01:00:05.842 - 01:00:27.712
It's just there was so much with the movie business then too because it's like there was no reason for you not to be able to release a DVD version of this in the States. He did exactly what he wanted to do. Yeah, but I think it was all a bunch of Weinstein and. Yeah. What else was going on at the time.
But yeah, it's like you, you could have given us exactly what we wanted every time you could have done it.
Speaker B
01:00:27.736 - 01:00:40.016
But I am surprised. I mean I'm sure, I'm sure there is a DVD version of the whole bloody cut.
I don't know if it's official or not, but I would be interested to see what the actual Singular movie looks like.
Speaker A
01:00:40.088 - 01:01:54.920
Me too. Yeah, I actually, and it's kind of a Scotia over, but I do go, I do go Hanzo sword here.
The reason it's a skosh is, and again, there's only, it's only binary on these categories, but it's, it's, it's a step down from the first one. But for me, when I think about these movies, it's the side quest that, that Tarantino takes me on. It's these, it's the Hanzos, the pie maze.
Like I'm enjoying these stops along the way. I don't think the payoff was as, as, as fulfilling as I wanted it to be, but I am enjoying the ride and I think it's a massive vision.
And yes, it's a bit self indulgent, I definitely agree with that. But ultimately it's still something that I think only Tarantino could pull off. And I really am, I enjoyed the ride.
Yes, I kind of left, I was like, ah, that didn't hit as big as I thought it would at the end. But I, I'm, I'm just thrilled with some of these characters. I'm meeting some of the choices he's making.
I, so yeah, it's a skosh, but I do go Hanzo sword. But yeah, it definitely was not, it did not hit the same vibration as the first one for me. So it is three to one. Then we got a Hanzo sword.
So far, what's in front of us, cinematography, production design, sound, costumes, editing.
Speaker B
01:01:55.660 - 01:02:03.348
This is still going to be a squeak over for me as a Hanzo, but I do think it degraded.
Speaker A
01:02:03.444 - 01:02:04.200
Okay.
Speaker B
01:02:05.260 - 01:02:35.256
I don't think the cinematography was as good as the first one and the editing is as bad as the first one. Now that I'm thinking about it, did I go over or under on this one? For the last one, I think I went under. So no, I'm under. No, we're under under.
Yeah, we're, we're a bitch. No future on this one. Again, it's like there was so much good, but just that 51%. The just, I don't know.
It didn't hit for me anywhere near the same as the first one did. And yeah, it's, it's a scotch under for me.
Speaker C
01:02:35.328 - 01:02:48.670
Yeah, I, I, I'm Hanzo all the way. There's, I can't get around it. There's no way around it.
But it's, it's like the, the amount of tension that you're able to build in some of those scenes. And with this, the cinematography, you can.
Speaker B
01:02:49.290 - 01:02:54.050
I mean, I didn't get the tension in this one. I got. I got the tension in parts of the first one.
Speaker C
01:02:54.090 - 01:02:59.394
Did you catch it in the theater by at all? No, no. Yeah, in the. It was just. It was an.
Speaker B
01:02:59.482 - 01:03:00.722
Remember, I was 10 when this came out.
Speaker A
01:03:00.746 - 01:03:01.026
That's.
Speaker C
01:03:01.058 - 01:03:23.480
That's true. You should not have seen it in the theater. Kudos to your parents for not allowing that to happen. But yeah, it's. I don't know. There was.
There's so much tension. There's so much. Again, it's. It's paying homage to genres while single handedly redefining those genres in the process. Yeah, that's.
That's where it's fresh for me.
Speaker A
01:03:24.340 - 01:03:43.762
Yeah, I go Hanzo here. The thing that I actually was blown away by that I'm still thinking about. I love the diversity of camera work here.
We're getting a lot of interesting angles. I like it some. It's small, but the black and white church angle that high. Is it a jib shot? Is that what it is? A really high jib shot that actually.
Speaker B
01:03:43.786 - 01:03:45.362
Might even be considered a crane shot.
Speaker A
01:03:45.426 - 01:03:46.034
Crane shot.
Speaker B
01:03:46.082 - 01:03:47.538
A jib is just a smaller crane.
Speaker A
01:03:47.634 - 01:04:32.468
He's given us a lot of point of views and he did this in the first one too. And I just forgot to comment on it. But I love it when it randomly will go split screen. I also loved it when he.
She does have her daughter and they're in the car and all of a sudden we're, we're. The camera is the front of the car. I just love that he's. He's.
One way that he does give us a lot of nuance and creativity is by giving me different points of view with the camera work. Yeah, that was really fun for me. I think. I do think the editing kind of took a step off. The soundtrack wasn't as memorable.
But at the end of the day I'm. It's kind of a. It's a visual feast for sure. Like I love.
And Tarantino will do this in some of his movies where randomly will shift the camera angle to a totally different style of camera work. Yeah, it's like, oh, that's interesting. It definitely sticks out to me.
Speaker B
01:04:32.524 - 01:04:32.900
Yeah.
Speaker C
01:04:32.980 - 01:04:40.564
And every one of them is a reference to something as well. So if you can chase down all those rabbit holes, you can find some really Fascinating cinematic history there as well.
Speaker A
01:04:40.652 - 01:04:41.156
Yeah.
Speaker C
01:04:41.268 - 01:04:49.920
And you're right. On the soundtrack. The Rodriguez supplied soundtrack does not quite hit some of the way that he was using some of the pop music from the first one.
Speaker B
01:04:50.220 - 01:04:51.204
Robert Rodriguez.
Speaker C
01:04:51.252 - 01:04:51.476
Yes.
Speaker B
01:04:51.508 - 01:04:53.188
Yeah, he did the soundtrack on the second one.
Speaker C
01:04:53.244 - 01:05:03.076
He did it for free for a dollar. So, yeah, so if, if Tarantino agreed to direct a scene in Sin City for a buck, then they would trade their services.
Speaker B
01:05:03.228 - 01:05:03.860
Okay.
Speaker C
01:05:03.940 - 01:05:13.844
And so, yeah, Rodriguez did the second one, which is a. It's a. It's a great little homage to the. Any. Any Omoricone scores that were directly used in the first one, honestly.
Speaker B
01:05:13.892 - 01:05:14.520
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:05:15.020 - 01:05:38.894
All right. It is five to one. No, it's a. It's actually four to one. Yes, I lose count easily. I actually originally called this category Big Kahuna Burger.
But the, the. But this is the Hateful Five. So, yes, we know that it's consolidated as one in the.
In the 10 Tarantino films, but we're going to break them apart for the purpose of this category. Does this get into the. To the top five, Tarantino?
Speaker B
01:05:38.942 - 01:05:43.838
This. This would be even lower than the first one for me. Don't know what else to say.
Speaker A
01:05:43.894 - 01:05:44.670
Yeah, no, it's good.
Speaker C
01:05:44.710 - 01:05:50.260
I get it. I think one makes the cut for the top five, and I think two is probably just out of the top five.
Speaker A
01:05:51.840 - 01:06:19.508
Yeah, I'd agree. I go, you don't have a feature on this one. This one. The first one didn't get in. Not because I thought it was bad necessarily.
I just thought the competition was really high for, you know, I mentioned Jackie Brown, Jango. There's just so much. And Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, there's just so much greatness in those.
For me, it was just like that slight tension between great and great. Here. This one takes a step below to that one. I still really enjoyed Kill Bill Volume 2, but it definitely doesn't. Doesn't get in there.
Speaker B
01:06:19.564 - 01:06:19.940
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:06:20.020 - 01:06:34.276
So, yeah, it is four to two. Last category. It's already over, but I called this one Love Me Two Times. My cadence to the Doors. My second. My second favorite band of all time.
Love you, Jim.
Speaker B
01:06:34.388 - 01:06:35.764
Just under the Deftones.
Speaker A
01:06:35.812 - 01:06:36.372
Under the.
Speaker C
01:06:36.476 - 01:06:37.284
The Deftones.
Speaker A
01:06:37.332 - 01:06:57.510
The Deftones. Rest in Peace, Jim Morrison. But Love Me Two Times. The fact that we, you know, yes, we had to wait a year, but we got a sequel a year later.
Tarantino doesn't have sequels. This is his only one. Let's just look at this.
As you know, I know it's a Volume Two, but since it came out separately, you have to look at it as a sequel. So how do we feel about it as a second entry?
Speaker B
01:06:58.170 - 01:07:53.668
I. It's going to go under for me. It's going to. And again, it's not bad, but it is not as good as the first one.
And the payoff is not worth it if it's going to. If it's going to be a part one, Part two movie. That payoff has got to be even better than it would be in a trilogy, in my opinion.
And it just, it did not hold up to it.
The fact that the title of the movie is Kill Bill and the moment that Bill dies is such a, honestly, just, just underwhelming moment, I don't think it lives up. I don't think it's as good as the first one and I don't think it's a very good sequel. Yeah, still not bad.
Still above a 7 in my rating system, but it's not, not great as far as the internal rating system would go.
Speaker A
01:07:53.724 - 01:07:54.320
Sure.
Speaker C
01:07:54.700 - 01:08:04.750
So to take a four hour epic, right, and to take the moment it's named after and make it the least interesting part of the entire series, that's ballsy.
Speaker B
01:08:06.530 - 01:08:09.626
It's like it's ballsy or just bad filmmaking.
Speaker C
01:08:09.738 - 01:09:32.199
I don't know the difference. Yeah, it totally works as a sequel. It worked to complete the story for me.
It had to be diametrically opposed in tone and pacing from the first one, I think because the first one was just not, in Seth's opinion, it was just like Ambien or something.
But the first one was like a shot of adrenaline and then you got this cool low simmer thing in the second one and just the anticlimactic moment of killing Bill and just making it like a human moment between two people that were in a relationship that fell apart. That's ultimately what it is. It's a relationship movie. When you get to that, that back half, it's a relationship that did not work.
And now both characters want closure about why we all want that in life, but none of us get to walk away from that table with one of us being dead.
So in, you know, in that regard, I highly rate this movie in terms of like this genre busting thing that kind of sampled a lot of my favorite things in the world.
And then also just as a standalone piece of art, it's like it told a deeply personal story when it was all said and done and it, to me, that's infinitely compelling.
Speaker A
01:09:32.619 - 01:09:45.875
Yeah, I actually went, bitch, you don't have a future on this one. It was a step below.
I do and here's my ultimate thing again, it's hard because I do hold this film in high regard compared to so many movies, and I'm such a Tarantino guy.
Speaker B
01:09:45.907 - 01:09:46.403
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:09:46.531 - 01:09:54.966
But I do think if this was one film, if there was not multiple entries, the ending would have been completely different.
Speaker B
01:09:55.038 - 01:09:55.334
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:09:55.382 - 01:10:08.678
I think it would have been really difficult to sit down and watch Volume One and as just one film, as just without a sequel and have this ending tacked on to this film as like a continuous. I think it would have changed the dynamic.
Speaker C
01:10:08.774 - 01:10:09.190
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:10:09.270 - 01:10:11.926
And I think the second half, they would have had to make different decisions.
Speaker B
01:10:11.958 - 01:10:12.406
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:10:12.518 - 01:10:44.340
So I do think there may have been a better conclusion out there somewhere. I still like the ending of this one. But I do agree, especially because that. That was one of the biggest.
Based on my research and some of the stuff you said. That Five Finger palm thing was such a. It's such a callback. That's like the super bowl in a lot of ways for those films. That kind of.
And because it, you know, it revolves around Pai Mei, who's this legendary recurring character in the lore, it is kind of weird that he kind of just walks.
And even if they just would have said the hundred step thing or something, because I wouldn't have known that that would have added just a little bit of gravitas.
Speaker B
01:10:44.430 - 01:10:44.792
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:10:44.856 - 01:11:00.088
I do think that this. The decisions would have been different.
I think it's interesting some of the choices he made for the second one that did make it a step below versus a really beautiful continuous vision. So again, it's another skosh of a below. But yeah, I definitely went bitch.
Speaker B
01:11:00.184 - 01:11:10.316
It's like, I still. I still think that, like, if you're going to say the heart explodes, they don't say your heart fails. They don't say your heart stops.
They say it explodes. Boats.
Speaker A
01:11:10.348 - 01:11:10.940
Yeah.
Speaker B
01:11:11.100 - 01:11:12.600
Blow the guy up.
Speaker A
01:11:13.060 - 01:11:13.676
Yeah.
Speaker B
01:11:13.788 - 01:11:17.788
That would be so kung fu of them to actually do that.
Speaker C
01:11:17.844 - 01:11:24.460
I. I went the ice because it was. It's such a touching moment for me because they. There's still love between them right after.
Speaker B
01:11:24.580 - 01:11:25.100
Sure.
Speaker C
01:11:25.220 - 01:11:28.220
It's like you just. Five Finger Death punched me.
Speaker B
01:11:28.260 - 01:11:31.868
What the. But he also broke. But she also broke his heart.
Speaker C
01:11:31.924 - 01:11:32.396
Yeah.
Speaker B
01:11:32.508 - 01:11:54.210
And it. I. I think especially with how over the top every other death in this movie was. Not only was this just underwhelming, it was disappointing.
And the fact that you built up that move to be such a big thing for both movies. It was mentioned in both movies. And for it to just.
Speaker A
01:11:55.710 - 01:11:58.134
In a movie where literally everything explodes.
Speaker B
01:11:58.182 - 01:11:58.454
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:11:58.502 - 01:12:05.184
Like swords. Like even I Go back to the guy, the nurse that was letting men in to. I hate even because that was so horrible.
Speaker C
01:12:05.232 - 01:12:05.600
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:12:05.680 - 01:12:08.128
It was a great part of the movie, but it was. It's hard to talk about.
Speaker B
01:12:08.184 - 01:12:08.784
It is. Yeah.
Speaker A
01:12:08.832 - 01:12:14.352
But letting men do that, like she slams that door on that dude's head and I was like, that hurt.
Speaker B
01:12:14.416 - 01:12:14.896
Yes.
Speaker A
01:12:15.008 - 01:12:15.952
Did you guys flinch?
Speaker B
01:12:16.016 - 01:12:17.264
Hurt to listen to?
Speaker C
01:12:17.352 - 01:12:36.134
No, that, that hearkens back to that Pulp Fiction needle scene for me. There's several of them in the series where it's like, it hits you on that visceral level. But I don't know, man.
The, the anticlimactic way that a long relationship can come to an end too is heartbreaking. So there's just something deeply human about it to me that I just.
Speaker B
01:12:36.222 - 01:13:43.348
Sure, it's deeply human. But we're in a fantasy world. They have created a non existent world.
And so I don't think it, it needed to follow a realistic situation if you're going to set up a realistic world with, with normal real world rules. Cool.
But everything in this movie, in the, in both movies was so fantastical and so over the top that to suddenly cop out and be like, oh, this is a human moment. It's a cop out. To me, it's not. The one time in this movie he didn't go far enough. When every other moment in this movie, I think he went too far.
He didn't go far enough for this ending. And that it even goes back to the subtle detail of. I think there should have been scars all over her body while she's laying on the bathroom floor.
Because it, it just, it's another thing that would have visually shown us the entire story in one shot and, and I think, I don't know, I think overall it, it, it just, it failed to deliver on, as you said, what is such a wild ride.
Speaker A
01:13:43.444 - 01:13:51.018
Yeah. Yeah, man. Four to three. This one was like close. Yeah, close. Ultimately it's a Tarantino and.
Speaker C
01:13:51.124 - 01:13:51.390
Right.
Speaker A
01:13:51.430 - 01:14:24.000
You can only compare it that way. I love it. But yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. We went 6 to 1, 4 to 3 and you pointed out some interesting things.
And it is the thing about Tarantino, I think that I. It's not just you. When you go out and read like comments and feedback from other people. It is definitely interesting how his pace is viewed.
Like he is a very divisive director because. And we earlier.
I don't even know if we were recording when we talked about this, but he straddles that line between, between, you know, glorification of his influences and paying respect to those in homage versus copying.
Speaker B
01:14:24.080 - 01:14:24.384
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:14:24.432 - 01:14:46.124
And if you tend to veer negative on Tarantino, I noticed that they will call him like, he's not original and only copies, but then others, and I think you and me are probably more in this vein. It's paying great homage. So it is really interesting when you, when you put a Tarantino film to the test because you get a lot of these.
And I think part of it too is because his Persona is so forward. He definitely is just an in your face guy.
Speaker B
01:14:46.172 - 01:14:46.748
Oh, yeah.
Speaker A
01:14:46.844 - 01:14:49.068
His filmmaking is in your face.
Speaker B
01:14:49.124 - 01:14:49.404
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:14:49.452 - 01:14:53.612
And you kind of. Even Scorsese has like a. An accessibility that's really interesting.
Speaker C
01:14:53.676 - 01:14:54.604
He pulls his punches.
Speaker A
01:14:54.652 - 01:14:55.436
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C
01:14:55.468 - 01:14:57.260
But Tarantino does not pull any punches. No.
Speaker B
01:14:57.300 - 01:14:58.972
Tarantino could not have made Hugo.
Speaker A
01:14:59.116 - 01:15:12.192
No. Yeah, well, even Goodfellas, you know, and of course I read the book Wise Guys, but like, there was a weird accessibility to these mobsters.
You're just like, somehow I still, I know they're going to chop my balls off, but I kind of still want to have a drink with them.
Speaker B
01:15:12.216 - 01:15:12.656
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:15:12.768 - 01:15:15.616
Like with Tarantino, it's just like fucking, here we go.
Speaker B
01:15:15.688 - 01:15:15.936
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:15:15.968 - 01:15:23.424
It's like when you chop an arm off, like, blood's going to spray out for the full 20 minutes and she's still going to be alive. And, and, and I do think it.
Speaker B
01:15:23.432 - 01:16:04.318
Is worth mentioning Tarantino has two movies that he likes to make and he's, he's been very vocal about this. He has his real world movies, which are Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction. I think hateful8 might fall in there.
But then you also have Once Upon a Time in Hollywood where those are supposed to be real world and so things are a little less over the top. Then you have your Django, then you have your Kill Bill, then you have these Inglourious Basterds, which are the movies that are made with.
In the universe of his other movies.
Speaker A
01:16:04.414 - 01:16:04.830
Yeah.
Speaker B
01:16:04.910 - 01:16:18.926
So those are the two types of movies he makes.
And that's why it's so weird for me that this one goes so over the top in some places and then pulls his punches in the worst places he could pull his punches in. Like, it's just. I don't know, it's all very weird for me.
Speaker A
01:16:19.078 - 01:16:30.012
Well, yeah, him, he's going to go down as maybe the most. One of the most divisive directors ever. I mean, definitely, if not the, at least in the top five of like, you, you're gonna have a binary opinion.
Speaker B
01:16:30.076 - 01:16:35.436
And he honestly, in my opinion, should end up in the top 25 directors. Of all time.
Speaker A
01:16:35.508 - 01:16:40.540
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And we'll cover more Tarantino. We have a lot of them on the list.
Speaker B
01:16:40.580 - 01:16:40.940
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:16:41.020 - 01:16:42.508
But, dude, I was so glad to have your.
Speaker B
01:16:42.564 - 01:16:43.580
Yeah, man, absolutely.
Speaker A
01:16:43.660 - 01:16:48.700
I don't honestly know how this would have gone without your references to. To the homage that I was playing.
Speaker C
01:16:48.740 - 01:16:57.112
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm happy to have that useless knowledge rolling around in my head. My kids never want to hear about it, so I have to have someplace to let it out.
Speaker A
01:16:57.216 - 01:17:00.216
Yeah. You guys got any shows coming up you want the folks to see or.
Speaker B
01:17:00.288 - 01:17:01.704
Not by the time this one airs?
Speaker A
01:17:01.752 - 01:17:02.460
Okay.
Speaker C
01:17:02.960 - 01:17:06.020
What am I doing? What am I doing with my life?
Speaker A
01:17:06.800 - 01:17:07.800
You know what?
Speaker C
01:17:07.920 - 01:17:14.104
Look. Look up my show dates on Blevo comedy on all social media platforms. That'll be your best way to find me.
Speaker B
01:17:14.192 - 01:17:14.504
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:17:14.552 - 01:17:14.824
Yeah.
Speaker B
01:17:14.872 - 01:17:17.940
And you can follow me at Seth K's comedy on Instagram and Facebook.
Speaker A
01:17:18.560 - 01:17:27.104
Do it. And I link you guys all the time, so just click on those links. Follow these gentlemen. Give them.
Give them some love, and not just for testosterone comments.
Speaker B
01:17:27.192 - 01:17:27.504
Yeah.
Speaker A
01:17:27.552 - 01:17:32.992
About Henry. But thank you so much for joining us, and I hope you enjoyed this. Love, y'all. I'm Kyle.
Speaker B
01:17:33.056 - 01:17:33.744
I'm Seth.
Speaker A
01:17:33.792 - 01:17:34.432
I'm Matthew.
Speaker B
01:17:34.496 - 01:17:34.976
Peace.
Speaker A
01:17:35.088 - 01:17:37.920
I'm getting worse and worse by the day of this love, y'all.